Banner and Forum Design By: Aurora Goddess
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 TheJollyApe |
Gods & Love (and other feelings) |
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Royal
Posts: 2122 (06/04/08 2:32 PM) XOC Forum Host |
A discussion over in the G/A thread got a little OT, so we thought we'd bring it in here.
Can a god (the ones on the show) love? Or lets take it even further, do they have feelings? Do they have a soul? Is it different from god to god, or do they all work the same way? |
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 Aurora Goddess |
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Administrator Olympian
Posts: 14221 (06/04/08 3:01 PM) XOC Designer
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I see the gods as an extension of humans/mortals. They possess all of the emotions and faults that humans do but in a much larger way. And, of course, they
have powers and are immortal. So yeah, I do believe they can both love and have feelings/emotions. I would say that all of them are capable of it but it comes much more easily
to some that it does to others because it is, in large part, dictated by the role that each god was born into. Aphrodite could love because that's what she
was--the goddess of love. But I think part of her traits--the jealousy, the selfishness, the vanity--made it easy for her to love but it took her longer to
actually "care". If that makes sense.
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Daughter of Tiaran |
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Administrator Moderator Four Star General
Posts: 3419 (06/04/08 4:46 PM) Caesar's Ghost |
I think the gods absolutely can love. As they were written, IMO the gods seemed basically to be pretty much similar to humans psychologically, with the added
benefit of having some powers that humans didn't share. It's true that they were mostly portrayed as being petty, selfish and short-sighted, but OTOH I
suspect at least part of that was situational--when you've been around forever, have superior powers to humans, and know that for all intents and purposes
you're basically invulnerable unlike the saps down there, I don't find it that surprising that eventually it'd go to your head. Power corrupts and
all that. Aurora, you have an interesting point about love perhaps coming easier to some gods than others due to their "station," and that's an
especially good point about how Aphrodite might be able to "love" easily, but it may take her longer to actually "care."
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LadyKate63 |
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Administrator Moderator Olympian
Posts: 79041 (06/04/08 5:22 PM) Xena Studies Ph.D. |
Obviously, the gods on X:WP (like the gods in Greek mythology) have personalities, and therefore feelings as well. Also, in Xenaverse, gods are capable of
becoming mortal (and vice versa), so there is no absolute division between the two. If Ares can become human when he loses his godhood, then there is a human
being somewhere inside the god, capable of all the feelings that humans have -- though the way I see it, godhood is a force that can
overshadow/suppress/obscure those feelings. Maybe even numb them to some extent, because gods have greater control over their emotions (maybe that's what
Nemesis meant?). I'm not sure it even matters what they're gods of. Obviously Ares has a special connection to the forces of war and violence, and
Aphrodite to the forces of love and sex, but I don't think that makes Aphrodite more capable of love -- I think that to her, love is something she can play
with and manipulate. To some extent I think it's a case of "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The gods are used to
treating humans as their playthings and the world as their personal playhouse.
There's an interesting description of the Greek gods in classical scholar Bernard Knox's introduction to The Iliad. It applies to the Greek gods as portrayed by Homer, but also I think to the X:WP version: The gods are immortal; they are not subject to time. They have all the time in the world. And so they are not subject to change, to the change brought by age, to the change brought by learning from suffering and a realization of limitations. They will always be what they are now and have always been. ... They do not change, do not learn. How could they? They are the personification of those mysterious forces which through their often violent interaction produce the harsh patterns of human life -- the rise and fall of nations, the destructiveness of the earthquake, the terror of the flood, the horrors of the plague, but also the sweetness of passionate love, the intoxication of wine, the extra stregnth that surges through a warrior's limbs at the moment of danger. As personalities (and that is how Homer and the Greeks always saw them), they are very different from one another; but they have, besides immortality, one thing in common -- a furious self-absorption. Each one isa separate force which, never questioning or examining the nature of its own existence, moves blindly, ferociously, to the affirmation of its will in action. ... To be a god is to be totally absorbed in the exercise of one's own power, the fulfillment of one's own nature, unchecked by any thoughts of others, except as obstacles to be overcome; it is to be incapable of self-questioning or self-criticism. What's interesting is that both Ares and Aphrodite start out like that on X:WP, but in contrast to Homer's gods and to Knox's description, they do change. Largely, I think, because they are put in different circumstances. For one thing they both learn to relate to some human beings as individuals, not playthings or favored pets at best (Ares to Xena, Aphrodite to Gabrielle), and they run into human beings who actually confront them about their faults. For another, they also run into limitations to their power. Even before the Twilight, both experience temporary mortality (Ares twice, in Ten Little Warlords and The Quill Is Mightier..., 'Dite once in TQIM) and learn what it's like to have no power and to depend on others for help. Also, as early as Season 3, they learn they are not indestructible -- they can be killed with the Hind's Blood Dagger like Strife, and Dahak threatens them all with destruction (or enslavement, in the case of Ares). I actually think those experiences have a lot to do with turning Ares' "standard god obsession" with Xena into love, and it's also interesting that he recognizes and names this love when threatened with the prospect of death or at least mortality in the Twilight arc. I do think that his nature as the God of War is still in conflict with his love for Xena -- his more tender feelings tend to be deeply buried, and for most of Season 5 he tries to manipulate or bully her into loving him. However, I find it quite credible that he finally rises to the challenge of unselfish love when faced with the prospect of losing Xena again in Motherhood. I wish they'd done more to explore the character of Ares after his return to godhood in You Are There, because I do think he's quite different than he was before, and far more "human." It's interesting that the justification he gives Xena for his actions in pitting the Amazons against the Romans is somewhat similar to Knox's description of the gods -- "I am the God of War and it's what I do" -- but the very fact that he feels obligated to explain himself to her is, for a god, quite startling. |
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Daughter of Tiaran |
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Administrator Moderator Four Star General
Posts: 3420 (06/04/08 5:35 PM) Caesar's Ghost |
Interesting post, LK. I especially agree with this here:
To some extent I think it's a case of "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The gods are used to treating humans as their playthings and the world as their personal playhouse. Just wanted to add, I think if anything the gods are *more* capable of compassion and caring than some humans shown on the show--and here, as a Caesar aficionado, of course I'm thinking of Caesar.  The gods had had eons of quasi-omnipotence coupled with near-unaccountability to anyone, and yet they
still were capable of forming attachments to mortals, and even coming to care for them. Meanwhile, Caesar had had the same two things albeit in a more limited
as head of the Roman empire, and yet my *personal* interpretation of him was as a textbook narcissist who used and threw away people without a trace of
compunction and was completely unable to care for anyone other than himself. Of course, "more caring than Caesar" is a pretty low bar  but
it's fairly telling that (as I see them) the gods were still able to clear it.
Actually weren't Hades and Persephone portrayed as being in love on H:TLJ? (I never watched that show, so I can't say for sure.) |
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gravitystar |
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One Star General
Posts: 824 (06/04/08 5:37 PM) |
I had a brief discussion with Ape about this the other day...so she poked me to put in here what I said then. I have mixed feelings. We could easily say that the Gods have the ability to love, even Hera says in 'God Fearing Child' that she love's Zeus
despite having to betray him to stop him, and despite all the things the pair of them have been through. Though by their interaction in both programmes I
don't know how I would compare it to mortal love.
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natyanayaki |
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Villager
Posts: 23 (06/04/08 6:05 PM) |
I think it's kind of similar to the idea that a blind person gets an increase in other senses, except that it works backwards. I think certain gods and
goddesses are limited by their powers, because their perspective has to allow them to do what needs to be done based on their powers. An example could be
something I once heard said about predators (wolves/leopards), if they felt the anguish their prey felt they wouldn't be able to hunt them. To use
Aphrodite and Ares as examples, I think Aphrodite can love, she has to but I think it's harder for Ares to love, and even when he does, I think he loves
differently than 'humans' do, or than other gods. I do think both of their mortal experiences have changed them. Like in the God You Know, Ares
explained how he and Aphrodite balance(d) each other out, but I also think that there is a balance that each god/goddess had within themselves. If Ares loved
or felt empathy as quickly as most humans, he probably wouldn't be able do his job. If Aphrodite couldn't love more quickly than most people, she
probably wouldn't be able to recognize love and do her job. Again, using Ares as an example he's supposed to have so much power and strength in one
arena (his ability to cause war/find warlords) that he lost some ability in another (his ability to openly love). I don't think he's totally incapable,
but I do think it's harder for Ares to love and when he does love it's a little different than what's normally thought of love. It's also like
when solving a physics problem, everything as to have a point of reference, meaning everything happens in relation to others, and in the end everything has to
be balanced. In the Herc/Xenaverse, while the gods/goddesses have a lot of powers humans don't have, they are beatable and I think that it's because as
they gain certain powers and abilities they lose others if not for this loss, I don't think they'd have been beatable or that Xena would ever have
gotten the power to kill them (a s/l I hated btw). If that weren't the case, then I don't think Ares' mortality could have changed him because his
emotions when he was the God of War should have been the same as his emotions when he was human, but clearly (at least to me) they weren't, and like
LadyKate said,
he's quite different than he was before, and far more "human." |
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Haephestus |
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Three Star General
Posts: 2739 (06/04/08 6:26 PM) |
Good question.
I'm not so sure on my answer. On the one hand, I think that due to their godhood and all the powers/abilities that come with it the gods are incapable of love. I think Xena said it better in LDITE (?) when she talked to Celesta (sp?) aka Death about the loss of her brother Hades. Up until that point, the gods didn't have to face the ordinary concepts of mortality and loss and I think part of that is what helps to "form" love (the realisation that you would be devastated if you lost that special person). Obviously it varies from god to god, but even if they didn't have the ability to return a mortal to life, there didn't seem to be anything preventing a god from visiting their mortal lover in the Elysian Fields/Tartarus so the true notion of "loss" would never be appreciated by the gods. When faced with their own mortality in season 5, I think both Ares and Aphrodite did a LOT of growing and both eventually came to understand what true "love" is. Aphrodite lost her husband Hephaestus and Ares finally managed to rationalise his obsession with Xena as feelings of "love" (a concept which he appeared to be unfamiliar with given his rather odd "courting" tactics including threatening the life of Xena's child and demanding Xena to bear his child). I think I'd have to go with a "no" for gods who face no threat to their immortality. BUT they have the ability to develop true feelings depending on the circumstances. For instance, the Norse gods seems to be a lot more susceptibe to aging, injury and possibly even death and I think that showed to a degree as Odin seemed to act a lot more "human" than the greek gods and seemed to be more ruled by his emotions (for example, his anger at Grinhilda, his betrayl by Xena, his fear of the god-slayers, etc). Cheers. |
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dahllaz |
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One Star General
Posts: 284 (06/05/08 12:16 AM) |
The gods may not have been strictly human, but at the very least human based, sentient beings. Or...guess it'd be
the other way around; being gods and all.
So yeah, they were capable of feeling, but cut off from that. Immortality isn't always a blessing and add to that the power that does make them superior, at least physically from mortals. And as others have said, power corrupts. I also agree that what their roles as gods were, also had an affect for all the reasons others have mentioned. It is interesting as well that the 'God of Love' (Eli's, not alternate Ares) cleared the field by having the opposition essentially slaughtered and the Greek Gods certainly felt a key human emotion then - fear. |
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athenasword |
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Commander
Posts: 385 (06/05/08 12:22 AM) |
Athena stopped a winning battle for the one she loved. I firmly believe that she had Ares beaten well enough that if Xena hadn't killed Ilainus, Athena
would've found out her ploy and she'd be out of options. To pull back during the killing stroke for one soldier shows a lot more than just
"favour," very similar to Achilles pulling back when Patroclus died. She didn't take on a new champion after Ilainus died; whether in her honour
or because a champion was an exploited weakness is debatable. But Athena and Ilainus were meant to mirror Xena and Gabrielle's subtext.
Last Edited By: athenasword
06/05/08 12:26 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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LadyKate63 |
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Administrator Moderator Olympian
Posts: 79069 (06/05/08 2:58 AM) Xena Studies Ph.D. |
DoT, interesting point about Caesar! Actually in his introduction to The Iliad, Knox goes on to point out that some of Homer's human characters
are also "godlike" in their total disregard for others in the assertion of their own will (in other words, narcissistic) -- specifically, Helen and
Achilles. However, both of them are eventually "humanized" -- Helen, when she is confronted with the scope of the human suffering caused by her
running off with Paris (which led to the siege of Troy), and Achilles when he is moved by the grief of Priam, the father of Hector whom he killed in battle. I
guess Caesar never gets to have that humanizing moment (well, except in your Destiny fanfic series.
).
It's also interesting that Homer's gods are capable of loving mortals -- particularly their mortal children. In The Iliad both Ares and Zeus grieve over the deaths of their sons in battle (and actually they do experience some limitations, since they cannot save their sons in violation of what the Fates have decreed -- Zeus is tempted to do so for his son Sarpedon, but Hera tells him that if he defies the law, the other gods will not respect his authority). Other gods in mythology definitely have feelings for their mortal lovers; Aphrodite grieves over the death of her lover Adonis so intensely that she finally persuades Hades and Persephone to release him from the underworld for a third of each year. There's also a myth in which Apollo accidentally kills his lover Hyacinth during an athletic contest and then deeply mourns the beautiful youth, turning his body to flowers (hyacinths) to avoid decay and nourishing those flowers with his own tears. In another myth the goddess of Dawn, Eos, was so in love with a mortal man named Endymion that she begged Zeus (who owed her a favor for something) to grant him eternal life. Zeus did so, but unfortunately Eos forgot to ask for eternal youth for him as well and when he began to age it was already too late. Eventually Endymion became so old, frail, and plagued with aches and pains that Eos put him into an eternal sleep to end his suffering. Myth had it that Eos visited the sleeping Endymion every night before fulfilling her daily duty of making dawn happen, so to speak, and the sight of him always made her weep -- her tears being the dewdrops found on plants at dawn. That's pretty long-term devotion. In spite of those stories, the gods of Greek mythology generally care for humans in much the way a child may care for a pretty toy or at the most a pet. I have to say I saw Athena's affection for Ilainus (whether as lover or favored champion) mostly in that light -- she is definitely distressed when Ilainus dies, and it prompts her to call off the siege, but she didn't seem to be in mourning when next seen in Looking Death in the Eye. I'm not sure whether or not Athena could have saved Ilainus by sacrificing her godhood as Ares did for Xena (the whole "your wound is beyond my healing" thing was odd, considering that Ares is able to heal Gabrielle and Eve from far more serious injuries -- and he had to give up his godhood to do it not because their injuries are so serious but because he doesn't have Athena's blessing!) ... but if she could, I don't see her doing it. Hmm, I think I'm rambling a bit.
Anyway, I definitely don't see Aphrodite as more capable of love than Ares, and certainly not by virtue of being goddess of love. If anything I think it could be the opposite -- she tends to treat love among mortals as a game for her own amusement (look at her actions in For Him the Bell Tolls!), and really more as her playground and/or her instrument than an emotion she herself would feel. IMO, it's pretty clear from the show that she becomes more capable of genuine love due to her interaction with Gabrielle. Ares, on the other hand, regards love as an emotion that is alien to his being, and that's why I think it hits him so hard when it happens to him. Love comes to him like a thief in the night, you might say. |
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